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Bruce Simpson
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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 6061
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 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:03 am Post subject: Snake oil in your tyres (11 Mar 2008) |
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This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2008/0311.shtml
I raised this issue in the forums a few days back but have written a daily column on it because I think it's something deserving of a wider audience than the minority of readers who read the forums.
Is Firestone pulling the wool over unsuspecting customers' eyes in making all those claims for nitrogen?
If the majority of evidence on the Net suggests that we're unlikely to actually see any of the benefits claimed, does this constitute a breach of NZ's law?
Do you use nitrogen? Does it work for you?
Will Firestone (or someone) now start selling car polish as a new way to improve your fuel economy and top speed? |
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Peter
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Snake oil in your tyres (11 Mar 2008) |
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| Bruce Simpson wrote: | | Is Firestone pulling the wool over unsuspecting customers' eyes in making all those claims for nitrogen? |
I think you could ask the same question of a lot of advertised products.
- do antibacterial soaps make you any healthier? (research shows the opposite is as likely)
- do air fresheners freshen the air? I use a window.
- do Briscoes actually have sales?
- do sugar loaded drinks improve your overall energy levels? Are the good for your healt?
- is bottled water any better? (research suggests tap water is often indistinguisable, and some bottled water is tap water)
- do pop-a-pill fixes fix anything?
I am sure there are a lot more. There are a lot of products pushed (and pushed) at us that don't benefit us, they benefit to seller. |
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tonyr
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 213
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| Ah Firestone. That would be the same company that rounds the balance on their invoices, no matter how payment is make, by cash, check, ATM or credit card. When I tried to explain that rounding was only legal for cash payments I was told that I was wrong, and anyway, it is just too hard to change. |
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roygbiv
Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Location: Auckland, NZ
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I had a friend who had a nitrogen fill in all his tyres and swore that it made a difference. But I put the difference in the same class as after I have cleaned my motorcycle (or car) it always goes better. I agree that checking tyres and pressures more regularly would have a much greater effect on economy and performance.
We are all marketing victims to some extent, some will quite happily pay over $2 for 750ml of water because it tastes better than the stuff that comes from the tap (which falls out of the sky for free) but winge about paying nearly $2 for an entire litre of petrol. |
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Eythian
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 442
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| roygbiv wrote: | | I had a friend who had a nitrogen fill in all his tyres and swore that it made a difference. |
There's also a lot to be said for the placebo-like effect of knowing you've changed something, and that it's claimed to be better, therefore thinking that it is better. The trick would be to fill someone's tyres without them knowing, and see if they notice anything. |
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johnthetech
Joined: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 485
Location: Rosebank Road Avondale
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:30 am Post subject: TyreSeal |
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Does anyone remember TyreSeal?
It was a thick viscous substance injected into the tyre through the valve which would seal off any small leaks instantly.
Several "Service Stations" had the pump for it in the courtyard.
If anything was going to work, surely this stuff would.
I haven't seen it for years now. I had four Reidrubber tyres on my Kingswood which all leaked and I was tempted to try some.
At that time, every penny counted and it was low on the list of needs.
I think Reidrubber got some of the foam chemicals mixed in with their tyre rubber. Their tyres wore out very quickly too.  |
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mad
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 765
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| roygbiv wrote: |
We are all marketing victims to some extent, some will quite happily pay over $2 for 750ml of water because it tastes better than the stuff that comes from the tap (which falls out of the sky for free) but winge about paying nearly $2 for an entire litre of petrol. |
Although, we do tend to regularly buy petrol in larger portions compared to water.
When was the last time you rocked on up to a dairy and bought 60 750ml bottles of water at once  |
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richms
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 192
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| Firestone have found an opening in the market for people that want to have nitrogen in their tires for whatever reason, and are filling that gap. Its up to you to choose if you take up their offer or no. Good on them if they have found another revenue stream. |
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Bruce Simpson
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 6061
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| richms wrote: | | Firestone have found an opening in the market for people that want to have nitrogen in their tires for whatever reason, and are filling that gap. Its up to you to choose if you take up their offer or no. Good on them if they have found another revenue stream. |
That'd be fine -- if they weren't making all those wildly overstated claims.
Show me a single tyre that's been damaged by the effects of internal oxidation through the use of air for inflation. I bet there isn't one in the whole country.
Show me the independent tests that prove a tyre inflated with nitrogen will give measurably better fuel economy than one inflated with air to the correct pressures.
Show me the independent tests that prove someone using nitrogen-filled tyres will enjoy a greater level of safety on the roads.
Show me the independent tests that prove a $5 nitrogen fill will extend your tyre life by an amount equal to or greater than that cost.
Unless this can be done, it's just like selling car-polish and hyping it as a great way to "improve fuel economy". |
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Peter
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| I remember you could buy cans of Haast fresh air. Haven't seen it on the market for quite a few years ago, maybe there is an opening in the market there. Firestone aren't using so much air any more, so there should be good reserves. |
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Bruce Simpson
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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 6061
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Peter wrote: | | I remember you could buy cans of Haast fresh air. Haven't seen it on the market for quite a few years ago, maybe there is an opening in the market there. Firestone aren't using so much air any more, so there should be good reserves. |
But what claims are/were being made for that product?
You can sell water in a bottle too -- but if you claimed that it cured diseases, melted fat away or provided some other actual benefits over tap water then you'd have to be able to prove it or you'd be in breach of the Fair Trading Act.
Why should nitrogen in tyres be any different? |
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Newsjunkie
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Snake oil in your tyres (11 Mar 2008) |
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| Peter wrote: | | - is bottled water any better? (research suggests tap water is often indistinguisable, and some bottled water is tap water) |
Which is why I refill a `Pump` bottle with tap water! Fortunately in this country refilling your plastic bottle with tap water is an option. A recent visitor from a third world country was shocked to see us drinking water straight from the tap.
When you think that bottled water costs more than petrol, while tap water costs around 0.15c per litre it seems a scam-like price difference. However when I am thirsty and happen to be at a service station bottled water is CONVENIENT and a healthier choice than coke.
Nitrogen Fills, no thanks.
This is a great Fair Go story. Bruce, have you offered your talents to TVNZ?
Last edited by Newsjunkie on Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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smeenz
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 926
Location: Auckland CBD
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| roygbiv wrote: | | We are all marketing victims to some extent, some will quite happily pay over $2 for 750ml of water because it tastes better than the stuff that comes from the tap (which falls out of the sky for free) but winge about paying nearly $2 for an entire litre of petrol. |
I've long been amused that you can buy carbonated flavoured water (i.e. softdrinks) for less money than you can buy the equivalent water content of that same drink, separately. |
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Peter
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| You can buy soda water for under a $1 for 1.5 litres. It is diluted with the bubbles I suppose, but otherwise there are no additives. And they get good margins on that because it sells for the same price as sugar/flavour loaded drinks. |
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Bruce Simpson
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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 6061
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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Oh the irony of the internet...
I just saw an ad for Firestone served up by Google alongside today's column.
Chortle! |
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thrashcardiom
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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[quote]You can buy soda water for under a $1 for 1.5 litres. It is diluted with the bubbles I suppose, but otherwise there are no additives.[/quote]
Check out the sodium content of soda water before you say "no additives" |
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Peter
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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| thrashcardiom wrote: | | Check out the sodium content of soda water before you say "no additives" |
I get Budget soda water sometimes, .80 for 1.5 litres on special, no sodium, just carbonated water. |
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edwin
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1230
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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[quote=The Firestone Website]Nitrogen will leak three or four times more slowly than compressed air, which can lead to some pretty useful benefits like:[/quote]
Is this true?
Air is 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen and 1% other gases.
Nitrogen (N2) is a smaller molecule than Oxygen (O2). So shouldn't Nitrogen gas leak faster than air?
[UPDATE] I've just realised my mistake - Oxygen molecules are smaller than Nitrogen ones. What stumps me is why, given that Nitrogen is Element 7 while Oxygen is Element 8. So wouldn't you expect the opposite? Help!
[UPDATE 2] Is it because of Nitrogen's triple bond vs Oxygen's bond of order two? |
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richms
Joined: 31 Jan 2005
Posts: 192
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| Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
That'd be fine -- if they weren't making all those wildly overstated claims.
Show me a single tyre that's been damaged by the effects of internal oxidation through the use of air for inflation. I bet there isn't one in the whole country.
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They dont say that, they say it can leak 3-4 times slower then air. Everything else they list is problems that an under inflated tire suffers from.
| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
Show me the independent tests that prove a tyre inflated with nitrogen will give measurably better fuel economy than one inflated with air to the correct pressures.
Show me the independent tests that prove someone using nitrogen-filled tyres will enjoy a greater level of safety on the roads.
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They do not claim those are the nitrogen, they say its from it holding its fill better. With most people never checking their tires an underinflated one can go for a long time?
| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
Show me the independent tests that prove a $5 nitrogen fill will extend your tyre life by an amount equal to or greater than that cost.
Unless this can be done, it's just like selling car-polish and hyping it as a great way to "improve fuel economy". |
Since they don't claim that the nitrogen directly improves the millage that comparison is meaningless. They are only listing the secondary benifits |
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StoatWblr
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:28 am Post subject: Moisture - only advantage - and not for reasons you'd think. |
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Most garage pump meters are inaccurate (I carry my own gauge and check its calibrattion regularly, many pumps are easily out by 6psi).
Most garage pumps don't have moisture traps either. This is usually WHY the meters are inaccurate!
Double whammy. I've lost count of the number of garage meters I've seen with condensation inside them and reading anything up to 25% high
An underinflated tyre gets hot. If the air is moisture laden then it has a higher coefficient of expansion than dry air, so the handling characteristics change as you drive - annoying but not fatal.
A decent dry air source and accurate meter will be the match of a nitrogen fill. I've used both and I can't tell the difference, even with sustained Autobahn and mountain road driving.
As far as I've seen the main use of nitrogen is to lighten your wallet. Yes F1 cars use them, but that's not exactly day to day driving. The profit margin on selling a nitrogen fill is easily 1000% |
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Sophocles
Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 880
Location: Auckland
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 8:01 am Post subject: scam alert .... |
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| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
Do you use nitrogen? Does it work for you?
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Yes. I'm very careful to use a mixture of 79% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, and the remaining 1% made up of carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, methane, nitrous oxide, water vapour, ozone, helium (makes the tyre squeak), argon, and krypton in varying quantities. The carbon monoxide and water vapour components vary day by day, but as they form less than 1% of the tyre contents mixture, I'm not able to get the exact proportions right all the time---that bit is a little hit and miss. The heavier CO2 molecules provide a nice bit of cushioning inside the tyre along with the water vapour.
Tyre pressure varies with temperature and external atmospheric pressure.
You need to inflate your tyre more when external air pressure is lower (ie, there is a low pressure system over your part of the country). You must not forget to deflate the tyre slightly when the low pressure system has been replaced by a high pressure system.
Yeah. Right.
Vehicles which use magnesium alloy wheels may benefit from using dry nitrogen. Some up-market cars (eg: Bugatti, Ferrari) have sometimes used this material. Ducati motorcycles did for a short while in the early 1980s, and had some occassional wheel failures. MV Agusta motorcycles still do use magnesium. I haven't heard of any wheel failures for these. It may be a similar case to "Rolls Royces do NOT break axles." Some drag-racing cars use magnesium alloy wheels.
Magnesium reacts to water vapour and oxygen under pressure. When used in wheels, the entire wheel has to be specially coated to prevent corrosion which leads to cracking which leads to eventual wheel failure.
As almost all production cars do not use magnesium wheels (they are expensive), then there is no need for dry nitrogen. (So called "mag" wheels are aluminium alloy, which does not fail in the same way as magnesium alloy.) |
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